The vast majority wished to make use of the Forums for free. He calls them “the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me” (2 Tim. Catholic Answers executive committee and board of trustees. A message from the President of Catholic Answers, Dear Members and Patrons of the Catholic Answers Forums, On Thursday December 31 at 5pm PT, Catholic Answers will close the Catholic Answers Forums (CAF). But again, understand that Tradition (with a big, ) is not an addition to the pure word of God. The debate over “Bible Alone” doctrines all eventually boil down to debate over who has the authority to decide, both what is called Scripture and how Scripture should be interpreted. We should hold on to all that the apostles taught, whether it came in writing or in verbal form. : Well, look at it this way: If you can show that this dogmatic Tradition is false or harmful to the Christian, it follows by implication that the lesser traditions should go by the wayside too. Dec 16th 2020 Catholic Answers. You will agree, I am sure, that the writings we call the New Testament were not yet collected together as Scripture when Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy. This is exactly the same thing that Paul urges in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So, then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”. Even though Old Testament Scripture predicted the coming of Christ, the fullness of the gospel came to Paul by revelation, as Paul says explicitly in Galatians 1:12: “For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”, So the “sound words” that Timothy and Titus are to hold to is the, transmission of the gospel that Paul had taught them. : Sure. If Paul views the Old Testament as Scripture sufficient for the purpose he enumerates in verse 16, we can certainly say that the apostle would agree with applying these same words to the New Testament. Paul exhorts them to hold on to his verbal teachings. 1. But we can legitimately extend Paul’s words in verses 16 and 17 to the New Testament as well. Family Life Center (2010). : I am afraid that I don’t see the relevance of these verses to your doctrine of Tradition. So when Paul speaks of Scripture in this verse, he is certainly referring to the Old Testament and not the entire Bible as we now have it. Doesnt Timothy 3:16-17, especially the part that I have bolded show that scripture alone is not only “profitable” but “sufficient”. Catholics, while affirming the importance of the Scriptures, do not view the Bible alone as sufficient for an understanding of revelation. If it was, then the equation between these “sound words” and the Bible seems justified. OBJECTOR: You need to attend to the context more carefully. : So explain what you mean by “Tradition.”. Semper_Fi_1 March 8, 2012, 11:26pm #1. Don’t you agree that this is what Paul is saying? It. In fact, in verse 15 he refers to the “sacred writings” with which Timothy has been acquainted from childhood. Thes… by prophecynow1working4christ2 Yesterday, 1:47 pm. CATHOLIC: Your distinction between the content of the gospel and the process by which it came down to us is curious. If it was, then the equation between these “sound words” and the Bible seems justified. But good as it is, the Bible, my dear friends, does not explain itself. The word for “teaching” (didaskalia) occurs many times in these letters. He calls them “the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me” (2 Tim. The inspired apostle says in essence to hold to the oral Tradition of the gospel that we have received. This was then reduced to three hours before reception and finally shortened to one hour. Take Revelation 22:18, for example: “I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17, which I quoted above, shows that it is Scripture that builds up the man of God, not human traditions, whether with a big. So when Paul speaks of Scripture in this verse, he is certainly referring to the Old Testament and not the entire Bible as we now have it. : No, we shouldn’t add anything to God’s revelation. Sola scriptura is the methodological doctrine of the Reformation, for Protestantism is said to be founded on Scripture alone (as opposed to religious tradition). The last phrase of verse 10 is further defined by the first phrase of verse 11: “whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” In other words, the content of these “sound words” is the gospel—the good news about Jesus that Christ himself had entrusted to Paul. If we limit ourselves to quoting selected verses, we will probably miss the deeper meaning of Paul’s words. A careful biblical interpreter must pay attention to context. ), I would take Paul’s meaning to be that the Scriptures are useful and profitable for equipping the man of God for God’s work, not that they were intended to be sufficient for every purpose. Lots of great Catholic links too. : Sure. These accepted books total 46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. Not according to the Bible. Even though I think the first kind of tradition is also detrimental to a Christian’s faith. : Your logic is sound, but the word translated in verse 17 as “complete” is, , a word that can also be translated as “prepared.” Now, you will concede that there is a difference between being prepared and being complete. It is a composite of holy Scripture that all doctrines of Christianity should be compared against. Catholic Bibles contain—and have always contained—all of the books of the Bible that have been traditionally accepted by Christians dating back to the time of Jesus. There are some Christians out there who are “Bible alone” Christians. Now after all these things, do Protestants truly believe in the Bible alone? —which every Catholic is required to believe because it is part of the deposit of faith. : Yes, that’s probably the scope of his reference. Thus, today, all we need is Scripture. This is exactly the same thing that Paul urges in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So, then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”. A careful biblical interpreter must pay attention to context. CATHOLIC: The Catholic Church believes that, in addition to the Bible, we need oral Tradition to know what the Bible teaches and to know the doctrines of the Christian faith that are not in the Bible, such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary. The Bible does not say “Do not use tradition” or “Scripture alone is sufficient.” But the Bible does not say “The Trinity is three persons in one God” either, yet it is a fundamental doctrine of … “All scripture is given by by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO ALL GOOD WORKS.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 Evangelization Holy Card. In other words, it can be a necessary condition without being a sufficient one. A good Catholic could choose not to use these traditions his whole life and still be a good Catholic (although one could not be a good Catholic without praying in some form). : I have no problem with the verses you cite because they were very applicable in a time when the New Testament was not yet completed. - Catholicbible101 is the website that explains Catholic teachings in plain, easy to understand English. So how can Paul be referring them to Tradition? distinction to say that one thing (content) applies while the other (process) does not? For you to maintain your position that Scripture is sufficient, you are forced to say that part of Paul’s exhortation in Scripture no longer applies. CATHOLIC: Ask yourself what the content of these “sound words” or “sound teaching” was. Was it the same as the Scripture that Paul and his hearers had available to them at that time (i.e., the Old Testament)? If you would like to continue supporting the work of Catholic Answers, you can. The time of the fast has changed, but it is binding for Catholic s to follow the rule as long as it is in force. Paul exhorts them to hold on to his verbal teachings. It’s very clear to me now after reading the Catholic Answers sites you provided. Catholics, for instance, see in the Bible the basis for the practice and efficacy of the sacraments, yet other Christian believers do not. Faith Alone. Sometimes, the emphasis seems to fall on the, of what is taught. In these pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus), Paul actually appeals to the notion of Tradition as a necessary and valuable supplement to the Old Testament, which he referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16–17. Verse 17 says, “that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” If a man is to be complete, he must have available to him all that is necessary for his work. The Author. In light of the next word used in verse 17 (. These Christians are Christians that believe in the Trinity and they believe in the Bible alone. There are some Christians out there who are “Bible alone” Christians. If there are other sources of equal weight and magnitude as the Bible, then Christian doctrine, stemming only from Bible exegesis, must be open to correction from outside the Bible. There isn’t even the slightest suggestion that we should add something to Scripture. We believe that the oral traditions passed down through the history of the Church are necessary, but it is important to distinguish between two uses of the word tradition. In particular, 1 Timothy 1:10 seems to emphasize the content when it speaks of “whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.”. Catholics would agree that we are indeed saved by grace, which is a free gift from God. 1 decade ago. Take Revelation 22:18, for example: “I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17, which I quoted above, shows that it is Scripture that builds up the man of God, not human traditions, whether with a big T or and a little t. CATHOLIC: I don’t think that passage says exactly what you want it to say. Paul is telling Timothy and Titus the same truth. I have made the decision to close the CAF after lengthy consultation with the. But a close examination of the context suggests that it is not the Bible that Paul is referring to. The Catholic Church regularly dispenses sanctifying grace through the sacraments. Shop for Evangelization Prayer and Holy Cards at CatholicPrayerCards.org. But there is an even more telling reason why we should not pit Scripture against Tradition by appealing to this passage in Timothy. : Agreed. ... And yet, we typically don’t do this—we simply assume that it’s up for us to decide, using the Bible alone … OBJECTOR: Certainly Scripture is not sufficient for every purpose such as biology or astronomy, but it is sufficient for faith and morals. Isn’t this what Paul is speaking about? It has resulted in the unification of protestants in their stance that all things Catholic are evil, including the Pope, good works, statues, Mary, authority, etc. OBJECTOR: The exhortation applies to the content of Paul’s teaching, not to the process of verbal transmission. Read 2 Timothy 1:13–14 carefully: “Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” Now the phrase “sound words” or “sound teaching” occurs seven times in the pastoral epistles (cf. I know … The Bible and tradition together are the font of God’s self-communication to humanity. CATHOLIC: A slow, attentive reading of the pastoral epistles reveals that Paul is exhorting Timothy and Titus to hold fast to that which they received verbally from Paul. OBJECTOR: I don’t see anywhere in the pastoral epistles where Paul appeals to Tradition. The normal word for “sufficient” in Greek that Paul uses elsewhere is hikanos. : Oh, I agree. The Bible is the book of the Church, collected, treasured and defended by the undivided church for over 1000 years. This last kind—Tradition as you call it—is an unwarranted addition to the simplicity of the gospel as found in the Bible. CATHOLIC: Your logic is sound, but the word translated in verse 17 as “complete” is artios, a word that can also be translated as “prepared.” Now, you will concede that there is a difference between being prepared and being complete. On the one hand, there are many traditions in the church that are not binding on its members, such as praying the rosary. Such an extension wouldn’t be much of a leap. GOd Bless You. Holy. Explore. : Look at 1 Timothy 1:10–11 again. It is God’s word handed down in verbal form from generation to generation. Our attempt to draw even a tenth of what they cost to operate through patronage was not successful. THE PROBLEM OF SOLA SCRIPTURA (Scripture alone) that is the assertion held by most non-Catholic Christians that the Bible alone is the sole rule for the Christian faith. OBJECTOR: So explain what you mean by “Tradition.”. Introduction. : Well, I don’t see Paul pointing Timothy and Titus to any verbal transmission. So I got stuck in the Bible Belt. This … of Tradition certainly does. Some of this was then put into what we call the Bible today. The protestants believe that God just gives them grace whenever He wills it, sacraments or not. But before doing so, let me also clarify something about the nature of Tradition. Such an extension wouldn’t be much of a leap. He is the author of numerous … It has resulted in the unification of protestants in their stance that all things Catholic … Romans 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. OBJECTOR: Yes, and in 1 Timothy 4:13, Paul says, “Till I come, attend to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching, to teaching.” You see how Paul emphasizes the importance of Scripture in connection with that teaching. Catholic s, on the other hand, take Paul’s exhortation in Scripture with the utmost seriousness and accept that both the content of the gospel and the process by which it came still apply today. : That’s contrary to the Bible, which says that Scripture is sufficient for life and godliness. CatholicSamurai July 8, ... Every body is able to find out the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and many other doctrines, just reading the Bible alone. Even though Old Testament Scripture predicted the coming of Christ, the fullness of the gospel came to Paul by revelation, as Paul says explicitly in Galatians 1:12: “For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”, So the “sound words” that Timothy and Titus are to hold to is the verbal transmission of the gospel that Paul had taught them. CATHOLIC: So would you say that Paul’s exhortation to hold to his verbal teaching no longer applies? Does any one know how much these “Bible alone,” … God’s word handed down in verbal form from generation to generation. Irrefutable questions that Roman Catholics and Orthodox can't answer "Roman Catholic Examined" Home Page "Orthodox Church Examined" Home Page Return to "Canon of the Bible" Home Page. Isn’t it an arbitrary distinction to say that one thing (content) applies while the other (process) does not? But now that Scripture is complete, that “pattern of sound words” is found in the New Testament and we no longer need oral Tradition. Mark P. Shea. The Bereans, we’re told, were mainly Jews (and some Greeks), not Christians, and they even had a Jewish synagogue. But that does not mean that it is. 1:13; 4:3; Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1, 2). The normal word for “sufficient” in Greek that Paul uses elsewhere is, , which is closer to the meaning of “profitable” or “useful.” Something can be profitable without being sufficient. OBJECTOR: Oh, I agree. In 2 Timothy 3:16, he uses the word ophelimos, which is closer to the meaning of “profitable” or “useful.” Something can be profitable without being sufficient. 1 Tim. Lots of great Catholic links too. So, I was curious, who all here uses just the DR as their main Bible for study and prayer? It has the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume. Well, we already saw that this is not the case. A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura In this article Dave Armstrong, author of A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, lists ten problems with the Protestant teaching of sola scriptura. 1:10; 2 Tim. On Thursday December 31 at 5pm PT, Catholic Answers will close the Catholic Answers Forums (CAF). There are certain Christians out there who believe in the Bible alone. The Bible doesn’t say he was—but it doesn’t say he wasn’t. See this page in: French, Portuguese, Spanish. CATHOLIC: Absolutely—Scripture is important in Paul’s teaching. 1:13). Course we must not roman catholic the new testament canon was meant by different books of scripture, as part of tradition and a council. But the word that Paul uses here is, . Christopher Check. When we add to the inconclusive value of the forums, the significant cost in financial resources and personnel time to host, operate, and to what degree we can, govern them, Catholic Answers can no longer justify the effort. In light of the next word used in verse 17 (equipped), I would take Paul’s meaning to be that the Scriptures are useful and profitable for equipping the man of God for God’s work, not that they were intended to be sufficient for every purpose. Amidst differing understandings, Catholics view revelation as a unity that is communicated in two ways: the Bible and the living tradition of the Church. Opinions about the merits of the CAF range more widely than those concerning any of our other works. Seeing this requires a careful reading of the pastoral epistles. He is telling them to hold and teach the truths that they heard from Paul’s mouth—things that were not yet contained in Scripture, but were passed down orally. Was it the same as the Scripture that Paul and his hearers had available to them at that time (i.e., the Old Testament)? Southern belles are great! Recurring Patron donations will be discontinued on December 31. Our attempt to draw even a tenth of what they cost to operate through patronage was not successful. The Latin sola scriptura is “solely scripture” or more simply put, Bible alone. Some find them helpful, others contentious, others find them addictive, and still others find some of the content not suited to an apologetics apostolate and some of the content better suited to private spiritual direction and sacramental confession. 1:13; 4:3; Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1, 2). Catholic Bible 101 - The Bible Alone? We certainly would not want to argue a positive case from silence, but neither should those who assume the thief was not baptized (the Bible doesn’t report the apostles’ baptisms either!). It is a composite of holy Scripture that all … Let's read James 2:24: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Protestants say NO! Note that this is just knowledge, and not actual realized salvation. The book of Jude contains some of the most mysterious and intriguing passages in the New Testament.One occurs when Jude warns against a group of Christians who have given … This is exactly what the Catholic Church believes we Christians should do. What are some of the ways in which the Bible and the Roman Catholic Church differ? You are justified by Faith Alone. For example, there was a change in the requirements for fasting before receiving Holy Communion. : Ask yourself what the content of these “sound words” or “sound teaching” was. One of the most common manifestations of desolation is that of loneliness—you feel alone in the world and nobody really seems to care about who you are and where you are heading in … 3 0. Posts: 24,032. OBJECTOR: I am afraid that I don’t see the relevance of these verses to your doctrine of Tradition. Take 2 Timothy 3:16–17, for example: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”. Now with Google Translator for non-English speakers. It includes things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the infallibility of the pope. Scripture is, because it is the written revelation of God himself. CATHOLIC: Yes, it’s normal to cite 2 Timothy 3:16–17 in arguing that Scripture alone is sufficient for the Christian today. Recurring Patron donations will be discontinued on December 31. and N.T. You are justified by Faith Alone. It has been going on ever since the Protestant Reformation in 1517, five hundred years ago. Scripture certainly has the power to do all the things that this verse says. Where we differ is the method of how we receive that grace. In particular, 1 Timothy 1:10 seems to emphasize the content when it speaks of “whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.”. 3. Being OF God - i.e., God’s very WORD, Sacred/Holy Scriptures nonetheless form a Foundational part of what the Church IS… Nevertheless, the position of the Church is that Scripture is … : Okay, I see your point. The bible is a great jewel, but it is NOT the church. We should hold on to, that the apostles taught, whether it came in writing or in verbal form. But a relationship with a Protestant woman is realistic for me here. Take 2 Timothy 3:16–17, for example: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”, : Yes, it’s normal to cite 2 Timothy 3:16–17 in arguing that Scripture alone is sufficient for the Christian today. Seeing this requires a careful reading of the pastoral epistles. The book of Jude contains some of the most mysterious and intriguing passages in the New Testament.One occurs when Jude warns against a group of Christians who have given themselves over to immorality. It used to be all night from midnight to the time when one received Communion. Don’t you agree that this is what Paul is saying? Catholic s, on the other hand, take Paul’s exhortation in Scripture with the utmost seriousness and accept that both the content of the gospel and the process by which it came still apply today. My biblical concordance does not list any occurrences of the word. ) Anyway, ask for the actual definition from Luther, from any Lutheran, where Luther actually defined what is meant by Bible alone… Because Catholic Answers has limited resources, we are always evaluating our programs to determine if they provide a good return on investment. : The words for “tradition,” whether noun or verb, do not occur in these letters, but the. in the pastoral epistles. I want to show only that Paul also emphasizes the importance of his hearers holding to what was passed down verbally. Non-Catholic Religions . That distinction results in an ironic turning of the tables. … If you can agree to focus on this doctrinal Tradition for a moment, we can discuss its grounding in Scripture and history. Pinterest. 1 Tim. Religion: One. Advent Apologetics: Is There Any Evidence outside of the Bible That Jesus Was Real? Being OF God - i.e., God’s very WORD, Sacred/Holy Scriptures nonetheless form a Foundational part of what the Church IS… Nevertheless, the position of the Church is that Scripture is materially sufficient, but not formally sufficient, for knowledge of the revelation of God. The Bible Alone? Catholic Doctrine Catholic Answers Catholic Religion Catholic Quotes Catholic Prayers Bible Verse Memorization Bible Scriptures Bible Quotes Religious Education. : Certainly Scripture is not sufficient for every purpose such as biology or astronomy, but it is sufficient for faith and morals. These traditions are with a little t. OBJECTOR: So what’s the other kind of tradition? Now that the content of the verbal transmission is embodied in Scripture, we no longer need the verbal teaching that took place in the time before the formation of the New Testament. : I don’t see anywhere in the pastoral epistles where Paul appeals to Tradition. But a close examination of the context suggests that it is not the Bible that Paul is referring to. Catholic Bishops in: -Council of Rome (382 A.D.) wrote a list of the 73 books of the O.T. But now that Scripture is complete, that “pattern of sound words” is found in the New Testament and we no longer need oral Tradition. Anti-Catholic, "Bible Alone" Christians: How do you know your New Testament Canon is correct? The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) has become the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States. to search the largest database of Catholic answers. : I don’t think that passage says exactly what you want it to say. Forum Elder. Saved by Maria Polyock. In fact, that is what the Catholic Church would say. P.S. “All scripture is given by by inspiration of God and is profitable for … This can mean only the Old Testament. (Orthodox and Catholic understanding are very similar). CATHOLIC: No, we shouldn’t add anything to God’s revelation. Now after all these things, do Protestants truly believe in the Bible alone? Apostolic. Theres more but i;m sure thios answers your question. But the word that Paul uses here is profitable, not sufficient. Footnotes. I want to show only that Paul also emphasizes the importance of his hearers holding to what was passed down verbally. Inevitably, we must point to specific verses, but they must be understood in the context of the whole. Artificial reproductive technologies, roman catholic books the new understandings of chronicles. The inspired apostle says in essence to hold to the oral Tradition of the gospel that we have received. Hello all, I have been thinking a lot lately about switching to using the Douay-Rheims Bible alone. For you to maintain your position that Scripture is sufficient, you are forced to say that part of Paul’s exhortation in Scripture no longer applies. It is a … The bible alone position was started after the protestant reformation. While we must guard against merely human tradition, the Bible contains numerous references to the necessity of clinging to apostolic tradition. Sometimes, the emphasis seems to fall on the activity of teaching, and at others on the content of what is taught. : You need to attend to the context more carefully. "The Bible Alone?" CATHOLIC: Yes, it’s normal to cite 2 Timothy 3:16–17 in arguing that Scripture alone is sufficient for the Christian today.Let me explain why the Catholic Church does not agree.